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ASCO in Action Podcast

Sep 17, 2019

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In this interview, ASCO President Dr. Howard A. “Skip” Burris discusses why he became an oncologist, the importance of mentors in his career, the most significant changes he’s witnessed in cancer care during the past three decades, and his vision for the coming year as he serves in this top volunteer position. Dr. Burris stresses that we can’t “divide and conquer, to conquer cancer,” a message underscored by his ASCO presidential theme, “Unite and Conquer: Accelerating Progress Together.”

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Shannon McKernin: Hi. My name is Shannon McKernin, and I'm the host of the ASCO Guidelines Podcast series. When a new ASCO guideline publishes, we release a podcast episode featuring an interview with one or more expert panel members. Each episode highlights the key recommendations and the implications for patients and providers. You can find the ASCO Guidelines Podcast series on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to this show, and you can find all nine of ASCO's podcasts, which cover a wide range of educational and scientific content and offer enriching insight into the world of cancer care at

Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Clifford Hudis: Welcome to this ASCO in Action podcast brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content offering enriching insights into the world of cancer care. You can find all of ASCO's podcasts including this one at

This ASCO in Action podcast is part of our series exploring policy and practice issues that impact oncologists, the entire cancer care delivery team, and the individuals who care for people with cancer. My name is Clifford Hudis, and I am the CEO of ASCO as well as a host of the ASCO in Action podcast series.

For today's podcast, I am delighted to be joined by Dr. Howard, or "Skip", Burris. He's ASCO's president for the 2020 term, and if we're lucky today, we'll find out why he's called Skip. In the meantime, Dr. Burris is joining me to share his vision for his presidential year. That is what he hopes to accomplish by this top ASCO volunteer leadership position is an opportunity to leave a lasting mark on our organization and indeed the larger oncology community. Skip, welcome and thank you for joining me today.

Howard “Skip” Burris: Thank you for having me. Looking forward to the conversation.

Clifford Hudis: So, Skip, every one of us comes to oncology for individual reasons and personal motivations, and I know that's true for you as well. So before we get into the details of your current role at ASCO, I think our listeners will be interested in learning why you became a medical oncologist when there are so many places to go in medicine, so many exciting specialties, what was it that drove you to choose taking care of patients with cancer for your career?

Howard “Skip” Burris: Interesting question and story. I was driven to medicine really thinking that I wanted to do something that was meaningful, something that helped others. And I was influenced by actually a number of friends whose fathers were physicians when I was in high school. And as I initially went into the medical field, I thought surgery was so exciting, and I actually spent many of my electives doing surgical sub-specialties and in particular thoracic surgery. And it was an exciting time in the '80s with heart transplantation and bypass surgeries.

And yet I also was dissatisfied with the fact that it seemed transactional. While important, and certainly lifesaving for those patients, these were surgeries and then, quote unquote, were done taking care of that patient. And then I had a seminal moment after rounds one day when we were in the intensive care unit. And I was talking to a patient, and the team moved on. And my attending yelled at me, “hey, Burris, what are you doing?” I looked at him and he said, “Come on. He's fixed. Let's go.”

And I half smiled and I thought, well, this guy's got such an interesting story and he was terribly appreciative of the care he'd receive, but he looked at that attending as somebody had truly had saved his life. And so fast forward to fumbling through internship and trying to figure out really what type of specialty I might want to go into. And two groups of folks that I ran into contact with shaped my career.

One were the oncology patients. Rounding on the oncology patients, doing that elective early in my internship, they were grateful. They were so appreciative. It was a great program in San Antonio. It was folks participating in clinical trials. And these were patients who not only wanted to help themselves but understood that what they were doing might help others. But really every person was so unique and had such a powerful story.

And then secondly, the attendings that were taking care of those patients, the oncologists truly seemed to love what they were doing. And it was really those two groups, I thought these are the kind of patients I'd like to take care of, and these are the types of physicians that I'd like to practice with. And I began shifting as many rotations as I could as a resident into oncology, and I've enjoyed being an oncologist now for almost 30 years.

Clifford Hudis: And so it was the patients, and it was the physicians really that in the end drove you into this specialty it sounds like, right?

Howard “Skip” Burris: Yes. I had been taught early on, and I tell some of our younger folks today, working with people that you like and working with people that you respect is such an important part of the job. And then the service that you're providing knowing that folks are appreciative and there's a teamwork in that both the doctors and the patients in the field of oncology are so special.

Clifford Hudis: So you just touched on a big part of what I think motivates or at least supports so many of our members throughout their careers and that is collaboration, working with others. And I can't help but imagine that your experience in terms of your education at West Point and your service with distinction in the Army has a relationship to that camaraderie, that connection, and that collaboration. How do you see that experience as preparing you for medicine, or maybe you think it didn't?

Howard “Skip” Burris: Actually it did, and I appreciate the question, the opportunity to comment on that. Going to the US Military Academy, going to West Point for undergrad was a decision made because I wanted to go to a great school. It was a great scholarship package, the way they handled it. And I knew I'd get a great education and was attracted, one of these kids in high school who gravitated toward leadership positions, and going to an institution that would teach leadership was attractive.

And then you realize as soon as you get to West Point, you're part of this big team. Everything you do during your years there is all about your group of individuals, your team, your squad, your company, surviving together, thriving together, and being successful. And, in fact, the motto that they teach is strength is one. And it was clear that you were at school with a talented group of folks who all wanted to be leaders, and everybody had to learn how to fit in, pick their place to lead, pick their place to be humble, pick their place to take charge.

And those sorts of teachings and the mentors and the colonels and generals that were my teachers on that led the program, they were simple things but they were things that stuck with me forever, and I think they've served me well as a physician. One was around the simple concept of you know if no one's following, you might not actually be leading. And you got to stop and take a look behind you and see if while you're heading in whatever direction you might be going, if no one's following, you got to check yourself.

I think a second thing that has stuck with me is better to be decisive than to be sure you're right. Very rarely are you sure you're right, and I think that teams even in medicine and maybe particularly in medicine really like a decisive leader. And I think that's something that is a great characteristic for physicians, gathering the appropriate data and making the decision and moving forward. But looking around and trying to emulate some of those folks who became leaders of the country was inspirational and then also gave you the opportunity to take away some of those teachings and try to embed them in terms how you carry yourself.

One thing about the army it's very hierarchical, but the generals, you know, know that those privates are what's going to make them successful. So the chain of command and that respect for each other, respect for the position, and respect for their role on the team is very similar to the role of doctor to nurse to the support staff and the like. So it actually ended up being a great foundation for my career.

Clifford Hudis: So it's interesting throughout medicine and especially in the last few decades, we have increased our emphasis on the role of mentoring. And I have I guess two questions which would be, one: how did you find mentors in your post military career given the strength of the leadership that you saw displayed there? And the other question is how did you translate that into your own service as a mentor?

Howard “Skip” Burris: Yeah, so I think important-- I think picking the right mentor-- maybe picking the mentor where you resonate with that person and think that somebody who you'd like to model and picking that mentor who can teach you something and really has your best interests at heart I think are key. Picking the wrong mentor is something that could really set somebody off on the wrong track if they're not careful.

I was very lucky. As I went into internship and residency, my chief of medicine was a fabulous mentor. He was one of those individuals who kept the patient first, was kind but firm, and just the thing I learned from him was what now we talked to as emotional intelligence, this fact that he was optimistic. He was very self-aware, and he was in control of his emotions.

And no matter what we'd done or not done and however the result went, he was the steady hand, and I always looked up and thought, I want to be that person. I want to be the person who's calm in the storm, and I want to be the person that people look to and say he's not panicking, and he's got the situation where we're going to get through this together. So that was a great mentor in my chief of medicine.

And then my other mentor during my oncology fellowship was a famous oncologist, still in the field today, in Arizona, Dr. Dan Von Hoff. I mentioned Dr. Von Hoff's name, he's been a Karnofsky Award lecturer. And Dr. Von Hoff was the one who got me interested in drug development and phase 1 clinical trials.

And I would say that Dr. Von was a great mentor for a few specific reasons. One is he always pushed us in front of him. He didn't need to take the credit. He pushed us to be presenters, pushed us to be first authors, pushed us to be the person that was in front of the clinical trial. And that was something that really was important for somebody early in their career.

And then secondly he really taught that perspective that it was a great responsibility both for the patient on the clinical trial and for overseeing that clinical trial and that while your title might be principal investigator, you might be the leader of the program that you really were beholden to those researchers that brought the drug forward and to those patients who were volunteering to participate in the study. And Dr. Von Hoff has always been a great person in that regard, and his Karnofsky Lecture was actually a highlight to and a tribute to all those patients who had participated in phase one trials through the years. So those were two mentors that really stood out and have impacted me throughout my career.

Clifford Hudis: Do you see yourself I guess echoing those styles of mentorship or expanding on them? Do you see anything in your own role as a mentor that hearkens back to what you saw in West Point and in those mentors in medicine for you personally?

Howard “Skip” Burris: I do think I've had embodied in me the patient centric, patient first approach. I am one of those physicians who has always wanted to get to know his patients, have always taken the social history as an important part. It's funny, a number of my longtime patients are comfortable calling me Skip on occasion. I actually know their stories and know who their family is, and I know what they're wanting to fight for in terms of grandchildren and trips and the like. So that I'd be really being grateful on having a relationship with the patient I think is something that has carried forward.

I will say to my chief of medicine mentor I still aspire to that. I wish I was always as calm as he was. I wish I was always as optimistic as he was and had that sort of strength, but it is still something that's front of mind for me and something that I at least strive to be as much as I can.

Clifford Hudis: So, reflecting on your career just for a little bit, I have a couple of questions. One is a general one and one more specific. But thinking generally first, you've been in medicine a long time. I guess you're around 30 years if I'm not mistaken. From your point of view, what do you see as the most significant change in the field that -- can be good or bad or whatever -- but that we have to think about and maybe help our trainees and younger members adapt to?

Howard “Skip” Burris: Well, the flow of information, the speed at which we're making discoveries and just the educational challenges there are immense. And so, I think that is something where the speed of drug development and approvals just to throw one statistic out, eight new drugs approved in 1998, 48 new drugs are indications approved in 2018, so what a change over the past 20 years.

I think the most significant change, though, is we knew early on in our careers-- you and I always knew that no two patients were alike. They might be in ERP or positive breast cancer that they really were not the same patient. They might be a adenocarcinoma, but they were really different.

And now with the advances in pathology -- advances in molecular profiling, understanding biomarkers, we do know that no patients are alike. And we know that everybody has to be approached individually. The tendency has always been to want to lump patients into groups to make broad treatment recommendations.

And that is part of the challenge with the education and information flowing forward. It is as simple as continuing to look at some of the prognostic indices that we have for some tumors, the next generation sequencing for others, whatever that test might be to really determine what's the best therapy for that patient. So those advances have really helped us in terms of looking at tumor biology and knowing whether we're thinking about an immunological approach to a patient or chemotherapy approach to a patient or whether it might be one of the new oral biologics. But that has been such a significant change.

And only a few years ago, it seems like we were giving immunotherapy in the form of drugs like interleukin 2, and now we have these fabulous new checkpoint inhibitors that are in front of us. Thinking back to really something like tamoxifen being truly a targeted therapy now thinking about the dozens of drugs that are out there now that are targeting other biomarkers on patients. That really has been an amazing advance.

Clifford Hudis: Well, I mean, I have to agree that this is certainly an exhilarating and challenging time in oncology, so maybe we can pivot to think about that and talk about your presidential year. What do you think are specifically the biggest challenges facing us? And let's call those challenges promising opportunities. Where do you think we have to focus right now?

Howard “Skip” Burris: I think one very top of mind is the oncology workforce. Physicians, leveraging up the physicians, having enough nurses and enough nurses interested in oncology, attracting young physician talent into wanting to be an oncologist, and then the other ancillary health care providers, nurse practitioners and the like, we need a bigger and more robust workforce to take advantage of the opportunity given to us with the survivors. It's incredible when we think about the advances and the number of cancer survivors in this country, individuals either under treatment or surviving with the disease where we're talking in numbers approaching 20 million over the next two years so really very amazing in that regard.

I think education, it is tough. We still have a lot of physicians particularly in the United States that are seeing multiple different tumor types during the day, and with the advances in information, it's just important that we as ASCO do our part in trying to educate and provide the information.

And then with all these new advances, it becomes the challenge of clinical trial accrual. While many of these therapies have made important differences in patients' lives, we're still not curing enough patients. And so, there is room and certainly the need for better therapies. And so, in this busy workforce and in the challenges of having everyone aware of the opportunities, how do we improve clinical trial accrual?

And then lastly, I'll just mention, of course, cost of care. That goes a little bit with patients living longer or taking therapy for a longer period of time sometimes in a chronic setting and then the cost of some of these new therapies. So those were certainly factors we're going to have to deal with. So, some big challenges for the field of oncology.

Clifford Hudis: Well, hearing you run to that list-- workforce, research, cost, patients, and survivorship, all of that-- it sounds like it builds right up to your presidential theme of unite and conquer, celebrating progress together. That sounds like a lofty and aspirational statement, but I also see immediately connections back to again all those points you just made. Do I have that right? Can you unpack the meaning of that for us at least, as you see it?

Howard “Skip” Burris: Yes, it's an interesting theme, unite and conquer, celebrating progress together. I specifically resonated with that. I have long taught my young attendings and my colleagues at Sarah Cannon that the challenge is too big and the needs too great for us to actually go with the divide and conquer mentality. We've actually got to be together as a team to get this accomplished and have the best care provided.

So I have talked about uniting and conquering for many years here at Sarah Cannon, and I think it fits nicely when we think about the oncology workforce and the members of ASCO. And then accelerating progress together, there is a great need to step things up a bit. I think that can come in a few different fashions. I am excited about the emerging opportunities and real world evidence. I do think some of the clinical trials are getting smaller and more narrow to fit specific groups of patients.

And then I think we're beginning to leverage up some of our physicians with technology, with advanced practice providers, nurse practitioners, physicians assistants, all those pieces coming together. And then I'll admit also having conquer in the phrase was important to me. The Conquer Cancer Foundation, ASCO's foundation, I think is so important. When you come back to some of these topics we just talked about, it's really one of our best ways to invest in and inspire young investigators. Some of the awards provided by Conquer Cancer and the mission it provides I think are really going to be key to ASCO's success.

Clifford Hudis: I think that's a great vision, and it's certainly one that does resonate, not just with you but I think with many in the audience. You touched in that description on that diverse expertise that we all believe we need to make faster progress. And for me, of course, this reminds us of our upcoming meeting in Bangkok, which is looking at speakers from some of the unconventional fields. How do you see that diversity coming together to drive innovation in cancer research and care?

Howard “Skip” Burris: It's an interesting opportunity for us, and I'll digress for a brief minute and then go to the Nashville Analogies. So, Sarah Cannon, based here in Nashville, and some of the things we've talked about really revolves around what it takes to put on a musical performance. So only one person might have the microphone at the time, but you've got the band and you've got the engineers and you've got the people that have setup the stage, sold the tickets. Every aspect of that's key to having that concert pulled off.

And I think Breakthrough is a meeting and when you think about the oncology ecosystem not too different. We need and have invested in information technology. I mean some of those IT individuals are so key to doing a variety of things, getting data to us, sorting and analyzing data, we were seeing telemedicine coming at us, artificial intelligence and natural language processing, all those pieces, which then moves quickly into where the engineers or participating.

Engineers and medicine, I think, are going to help make some of the greatest advances. I think certainly engineers in terms of how we're looking at robotics and surgery, how we're thinking about different techniques for radiation therapy, and even engineers getting involved in some of the drug discovery process.

And then bioinformatics and we've talked about big data and the excitement behind that. I commented on real world evidence, but this whole idea of being able to have decision support through bioinformatics and the understanding that those experts bring to the table. Those are some of the things that'll be highlighted at the Breakthrough Meeting. I think those are individuals who are going to need to be core pieces to the cancer solution and to cancer centers. And it's just an exciting time, and I think this meeting will be a great place to highlight how those groups can come together and have a conversation.

Clifford Hudis: So, we are now a few months into your presidency year. I have to ask: has there been anything that has surprised you about the experience, something that you did not expect as you entered into this leadership role?

Howard “Skip” Burris: I think the one surprise is how many individuals want you to lend an ear with email and text, that's a little bit easier. But folks that want to stop and grab you and give you a suggestion. I say surprised by that because I think these members, our colleagues, folks that are participating in the oncology care field really have ideas, thoughts, and passions.

The individuals that speak to me really want you to take their ideas seriously, think about it, and bring it forward. And I'm appreciative of that. I'm surprised that they wouldn't see me taking this role in this title as being an opportunity for them to have that conversation and want to push their idea of forward. But that's been both a surprise and yet a pleasant experience, and I've enjoyed the conversations.

I will also comment and throw some kudos out. I knew the ASCO staff was smart. I knew the ASCO staff was very hard working. But as you become ASCO President and you're seeing and signing and reading and participating in their communications that they put out in a variety of fashions, just this sheer legislative communication they have back and forth with congressional staff and answering various health care initiatives. One, it's a high volume, two, ASCO's voice and input on this is really needed and appreciated and respected, and, three, we really have a very talented ASCO staff sitting with our organization, and I think that's something that it would be great for all 40-plus 1,000 of our members to really appreciate.

Clifford Hudis: Well, you know I agree. Now I have to ask, in addition to your long history of volunteer leadership within ASCO and your current role, especially as president, you also have a busy day job. You're currently chief medical officer and president of clinical operations as well as executive director of drug development all at the Sarah Cannon Research Institute, which is a leading cancer center for clinical research in the country. You're also an associate of Tennessee oncology. Now I was once ASCO president myself, and I know how busy the role keeps you. How do you do it all, Skip?

Howard “Skip” Burris: Well, you certainly did it, and I don't mind saying I looked at folks like yourself to understand how better manage my life. I do think I've become better at scheduling. Through the years, I've learned that if I don't schedule myself in, I don't schedule a family in, and schedule a little downtime, that can be hard. So, I have become more disciplined with that through the years.

I think secondly, I've been blessed to have constant and consistent team. Same nurse practitioner for more than 15 years, same pharmacologist for more than 20 years, nurse, staff, et cetera, so that has helped and enabled me to delegate and empower them and others. And recruiting in great talent has been important.

The work energizes me, and I have really enjoyed working with really smart people. And then lastly some credit to my wife, Karen. Surely after being elected president, Karen put me on a diet, and I think that's provided a little bit of extra energy for me as well.

Clifford Hudis: And how's that working out?

Howard “Skip” Burris: Yeah, it's going pretty well. She's been a great encourager for me, and we've been able to drop a few pounds. And we can button the jacket, and so that will help me out with the pictures and being onstage.

Clifford Hudis: So that leads me to maybe a piece of low hanging fruit here, but at the end of this year when you look back on your year as ASCO president, what's the one thing you hope you've accomplished? And don't tell me it's dropping 20.

Howard “Skip” Burris: No, I won't 'cause Karen would tell you dropping 30, but I'm open for dropping 20. I hope that when we look back on my presidential year that it will be seen as a year where we bridge some gaps and connected people to begin to have some conversations to really push some advances. I think this idea of connecting people and bridging the various stakeholders is important to me, that will come in a variety of ways.

I think my educational chair Dr. Prowell, Tatiana, coming from the FDA and from Johns Hopkins and Dr. Melissa Johnson, the two of them bring a very unique perspective in. So how the committees are formed and who's engaged in planning the annual meetings and how we have various participants and speakers, I think we're hoping to engage more of the oncology workforce and care force in terms of participating in the meeting.

I also hope that we'll begin to push this idea of why all should be a member of ASCO. I think there's nothing more important than being together as an association. There has been articles out of late touting why doctors should organize, so I'm also hoping during this year we see an increase in membership for years going forward. Maybe we can set some of that platform up.

And then also really continue to energize and push the Conquer Cancer Foundation. I think it should be something that all of our members will be proud of to say that they've contributed to Conquer Cancer and that they'd invested in the future of oncology. So those are a few of the things I hope to get started. It's a fast year. I know it'll go by quickly, but I'm hoping some of those initiatives can get rolling and we can have that carry forward in years. And when we look back we'll think that I had a small part in getting some of those programs moving along.

Clifford Hudis: Well, that's great. I want to thank you again, Skip, for joining me today. It's been a great conversation. I've appreciated especially hearing more about your vision and your hopes for the coming year as well as the impact you want to leave. I have to say at the opening I teased a little bit about how you came to be called skip, and you haven't shared that. So, this is your chance if you want to let the membership know why we call you Skip. That'd be great.

Howard “Skip” Burris: Well thanks, Cliff. Howard A Burris, III and, of course, Howard, Sr lived down the street and Howard, Jr was in the same house with me. So, when I first came home from the hospital, my mom called me Skip. I have had that nickname since I was born. And I always talked about switching back to Howard when I went to college or after medical school or when I turned 40.

And for whatever reason, personality, friends, I've always stayed a Skip. There is no middle name, Howard A Burris. A is just the initial. So, there's been no middle initial to fall back to. So, I think Skip's what it's going to be and that seems to be what's sticking with me through the years. So that's the story.

Clifford Hudis: That's great. Well, I want to thank you again and want to remind our listeners until next time. We appreciate your taking the time to join us for this ASCO in Action podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or a review on Apple podcast or wherever you listen. And while you're there, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

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